Was wondering if anyone could help?
Over the past few days i have been listening to a friend talk on the topic of being a new creation, and I have been listening to sermons that contain information that seems to contradict my friend n I'm confused between the two arguments.
I thought perhaps if I shared them someone might give feedback!
I might be being really dim but it is conflicting in my head n i thought this was the best way to ask.
Argument one:
We are sinners saved by grace!
Despite our salvation we are still sinners and innately sinful and challenged by human weakness.
That we have to pray for the continued transformation into the likeness and that being washed in his blood and clothed in his righteousness we can come before him and ask for forgiveness and guidance despite our human weakness.
Argument two:
We were sinners but are redeemed by grace!
That in being born again as a new creation we are no longer in need of transformation nor innately sinful. That in our new form we are completely redeemed and need to live in that redemption and to pray to be transformed into the likeness of Christ is to deny what he did for us on the cross.
I don't know if anyone has any opinions?
Im feeling a little like a confused meerkat but God is good and his truth will stand firm it may be a combination of the two but as it is I am lost and hope someone would be able to shed some lite on it for me.
Thank you.
God bless x
hmmmmm
ReplyDeleteI think there's a big aspect of this which is about perspective. From our perspective we see our mistakes and therefore see that we are still sinners. God sees us via Christ and therefore sees us as pure. Now the problem is if we then see God as deluded. That doesn't fit. So God is not tricking himself into thinking we are righteous, so we must actually be righteous, sometimes in spite of our actions. The new creation is also a new covenant and a new law, the law of faith and of grace. If we are no longer under the law we can never again be called sinners, because that assumes lawbreaking. This does also mean that we have a freedom of action. Paul talks about the sinful nature jumping on the law and pushing him to do what he hates to do, but when free from the law and renewed by grace the sinful nature is disempowered. But as with all the kingdom of God, it is now but not yet, we are still to see the full reveal as sons and daughters of God. And God did not make us (or Adam and Eve) perfect, but rather innocent, even Naive. God made us as children, not as equals, so maybe Adam and Eve would still have made mistakes, that would now be called sin, had the fall not taken place. Maybe the important thing was that they walked with God. We are still jars of clay, and that is what we are meant to be, fragile and breakable and flawed, so that the treasure within us is clearly from God and not from us.
This was all written off the top of my head, it is probably innacurate, and possibly self contradictory, but hopefully it is helpful. Maybe I should write it on my blog.
Lawrence
The question you are asking is do we have to work at salvation or not,
ReplyDeleteonce we're saved we no longer need that transformation, nor innately sinful.
i personally disagree with that because i believe that salvation starts now, the whole idea of working at salvation and asking God for forgiveness is a practice a christian practice, something that can be difficult but the more we work at it and come into his likeness the easier it becomes overall.
I believe that we are both saved and redeemed by grace, i think its wrong to separate them into two different arguments because they both work hand in hand.
I also believe that despite our salvation we are still sinners(argument one)
i also believe parts of argument 2.
But what is happening is that the arguments are two complete opposites, two extremes.
But they both work together because we do need to live in that redemption and we do need to forgive and we do need to understand that we are washed in his blood.
but number one is right but the second part of number is also right, obviously im saying that in my own understanding and christology of what i believe.
Hit me
sorry kind of miss read the arguments, i meant working at our humanity not salvation, if i have to work at my salvation then what was what the whole point of jesus on the cross that idea undermines the cross!!!! , we are saved, but we have to work at coming into his likeness, running that race, cool, ok ive got that out the way haha
ReplyDeleteinfact just generally ignore my last comment, i didnt really think through what i was writing, but now i have!
ok the second argument delves into a weslyian theology that teaches this idea of man being without sin, but in the bible it says that if a man says he is without sin he's lying, (i cant remember the scripture, i think Peter says it)
the first argument is much more true to who we are because we sin, i also like what the other guy commented about perspective that is an interesting point to keep in mind.
At the end of the day, we sin, by grace we are saved(meaing Jesus saves us and no longer bound by sin)
by grace we are also redeemed(meaning brought back) in this case brought back to Christ.
Because we still sin we have to ask for forgiveness again and again, its this Christian practice of confesion that we do, and by doing this we are reminded that God is God, that God is the 'I AM' a close God, near, intimate and om comfort and tenderness. Repenting/confessing is a beautiful but difficult practice of saying i am sorry.
I am for arguement 1
Its arguments like this that make me wish I believed in purgatory lol
ReplyDeleteThe thing is you guys are all missing the point, Jesus didn't die on some sort of Rambo-behind enemy lines mission to drag us kicking and screaming into heaven. He died because He came to show God to us and we murdered Him. Salvation isn't about getting into heaven, its about renewing our relationship with God.
We are saved by faith demonstrated by works... read James with this in your head
"Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22:37-40)
Faith and works are inseparable, and the reformers never meant for them to be torn apart. Seriously read James, and then Philipians "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works within you"
We don't do these good works for our own benefit, but rather through them God renews us by His Spirit